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no.
yes.
Not really. I think animal rights are nice, but I like my meat. Vegan to me is just a highly exaggerated vegetarian.
Vegans are not morally superior. Vegans are not moral. Vegans are inferior.
yup, sure are.
Vegans aren’t morally superior. God put the animals on this Earth for the consumption of man.
Were did you get that?
Good job Erica! You managed to be insane (seems like someone forgot to tell you that no one believes in ‘God’ anymore), speciesist (that’s a big word, Erica, that basically means you think that the life of a human animal is intrinsically worth more than the life of a non-human animal and puts you on par with racists), and sexist (no one uses ‘man’ to refer to humankind anymore – unless they are either very old or what is more likely in your case – sexist) in one sentence.
Why don’t you put down the fairy tales and read an ethics book for a change.
Topic: Vegans are morally superior to carnivores, due to the amount of energy that goes into raising equivalent amounts of meat is staggeringly high. I’d also state that just because it’s morally superior does not make it pleasant.
Bertrand: Just because you don’t believe in a god does not make your opinion the majority opinion. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/man Special attention to entry two. Speciesist though our treatment of animals may be, domesticated animals would not survive without human intervention, therefor we have an obligation to make the lives of livestock better, and since we’re keeping them around anyway, we might as well enjoy the meat as a byproduct.
Being a jerk does not make you right. Next time you correct someone, please get your facts in order.
@ Mark,
1. I consider myself (and all atheists) to be part of a sane minority. Or, if you like, to be the totality of people whose views matter on the subject of religion. Just because Erika hears voices in her head (or reads the words of those who heard voices in their heads) telling her that murdering animals is Gods will doesn’t even come close to making the case with me. To be fair I would also dismiss the justification that voices in your head made you think it was okay to push that person in front of the train.
What I am concerned with is rational debate, for or against the subject. The insane and apologists for the insane only hinder the process.
2. From the Oxford dictionary…
“The generic use of man to refer to ‘human beings in general’ is now widely regarded as old-fashioned or sexist. Acceptable alternatives include the human race or humankind.”
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/man?view=uk
Which is it Mark? Are you old-fashioned or sexist?
3. I’m not even going to reply to your point about how since you keep them as slaves you might as well put the black people to work. God knows they wouldn’t survive if you freed them.
If a christian said to you that their beliefs were totally correct and that you should change your beliefs to match theirs you would be outraged and rightly so.
So why do you do the exact same thing but in reverse?
Im an athiest but i dont go round preaching to the believes telling them to convert and i dont insult people because of their beliefs, if they want to believe and it helps them get through life then thats fine with me.
you dont have to insult people to prove that their wrong, it just undermines your argument.
as for the argument on this page:
its true that the way we mass produce animals is generally inhuman and that the energy used to create the meat we eat in this mass produced manner is extremely high. but it is human nature to eat meat for a reason. if meat is produced in an efficient and uncruel way then it is not wrong, if its produced in the way it most often is then it is wrong.
however just because you eat meat does not make you morally inferior to some one who doesnt. following your natural instincts doesnt make you a bad person if its not cruel or wasteful.
@nome3000,
1. Suppose you argue that 2 + 2 = 3 and say I argue that it in fact equals 4 and that you are an idiot. How does the fact that I’ve insulted you undermine my argument? It might make me a dick and it might be poor form but it most certainly doesn’t undermine my argument.
2. Religious justifications for morally questionable actions lack reason and logic and are therefor inferior to secular or social or scientific arguments. They simple do not hold up. I am not suggesting that a religious person become an atheist – not at all. They are obviously religious because of some faulty wiring, weakness of will, lack of critical faculties, indoctrination or insanity. Those characteristics generally don’t lead a person to atheism.
3. Why do you think that it is natural for humans to eat meat?
4. Your argument that following your instincts (whatever they are) is justifiable is absurd. Although, you would make a good lawyer for a rapist, wife abuser, murderer etc.
Don’t worry about responding. You obviously haven’t spent much time thinking about the things you so passionately write about. Or perhaps you have – but with very little critical ability?
Thats exactly the reason it undermines your arguement, because you act like a “dick”.Insulting people doesnt convince them of your opinion it puts them off and its unneccessary. If someone was mentally retarded and they said they believed in God would go up to them and tell them that their fucking stupid? no because it doesnt achieve anthing. Just because you believe somthing passionalty doesnt give you the right to dismiss everyones elses opinions. At the end of the day if they still dont agree with you thats just life, even if you think their stupid for doing so.
If an evangelical christian told you that you beliefs were totally wrong and that you were an idoit for thinking so you wouldnt be like “oh well i better change my mind then”, thats what your doing here. You preach athiesm and insult everyone for not thinking the same when you wouldnt stand for it the other way round. your assuming that because others dont believe what you do, that they must be insane, good for you, you can see clearer than everone else, did Einstein tell everyone who didnt understand relativity that they were thick, no.
Its a survival trait that we eat meat (having a varried diet means you can survive in more habitats), therefore its instinct to want to eat it, our brains being train subconciously that its preferable to vegan diet.
I didnt say it justified it, its just why it happens.
I dont agree with the way meat is mass produced or animals treated.
What would be a more realistic way of reducing these problems is convincing people that they should only eat it a few days a week, that would a decent compromise. I’ve seen some of the statistics that if everyone didnt eat meat for 3-4 days a week it would dramatically decrease these problems.
As for it being morally wrong, your right i havent read into this enough to make a reasoned arguement for why, but its my opinion that its not. I’m not passionately argueing these points, but the way that you read it made it passionate, because obviously you do feel passionalty, I’d assume thats why you insult people. If you come up with a reason arguement that counters this I’d be glad to hear it.
The best way I can express this opinion is the song “Beef and Broccoli” by immortal technique on revolutionary volume.1
He puts it across much better than i could although hes not addressing this question it goes half the way to it.
and just to make it clear, insult me all you like, im none to bothered what you think about me, you dont know me so you can judge and dont tell me what to think it doesnt add anything to your arguement, if its my opinion im entitled to it even if its complete bull, in the words of Immortal technique its called ” freedom of speech motherfucker”
.
@nome3000,
Stop being such a crybaby! Don’t you find it odd that you spend most of your post railing against my perceived insults and then end with a quote about freedom of speech.
You have to understand that there are some truths in the world and that your cultural relativist ideals are quite simply indecent.
Suppose you said to me that torturing kittens was acceptable because your god said so. Would I be wrong to disagree?
What if your religious / social / personal beliefs prompted you to treat women in a subservient manner – robbing them of there right to vote, right to education and right to a divorce?
Do you understand that your argument puts all actions and convictions on equal footing?
You have to also understand that noting can undermine a truth.
Here’s a quote for you…
“I’m quite sure that people will look upon my attitude and sentiments and look for hypocrisy and hatred in my words. My revolution is born out of love for my people, not hatred for others.”
@nome3000,
One more thing…
I never did insult you. I never meant to at least. You seem like a smart person who is at least thinking through these issues. Like you I don’t even very passionately care about the issue itself. I’m more interested in the debate and as such get frustrated by people who use religion to justify their actions. I like to goad such people into a reaction solely because religious people behave as though they are exempt from rational debate.
There are a lot of arguments out there for and against eating meat – the book that influenced me the most is call Practical Ethics by Peter Singer. Read it. He does a much greater job at explaining the issue than I could hope to.
Most people would agree that killing a sentient being not absolutely Good in and of itself. Even sport hunters don’t participate in their sport solely for the thrill of seeing an animal lose its life before their eyes. Only socio/psychopaths can conceivably view killing as a positive thing.
Now, if killing is Not Good, does that make it Bad? Not necessarily. Plenty of things are neither Good nor Bad, but morally neutral, for example, your choice of hairstyle. But killing animals is not morally neutral. Killing animals involves causing harm, pain, and loss of life to a sentient being. That is not absolutely morally neutral. Most people would agree, it is Bad.
However, the daily lives of humans involves many situational complexities, and absolutes are often not useful to us. Killing a sentient being may be Bad, but in some situations, it can be considered justified. For example, a family on the brink of starvation could be saved by the sacrifice of one animal. Here, many would see the killing of a sentient being as morally justified. One human on the brink of starvation killing one animal is justified as well, as is a wolf killing a rabbit in order to survive.
But humans have the blessing and the burden of being highly intelligent, thoughtful, and sensitive beings. Beings with the power to reason that doing something Bad without justification is morally inferior to Not doing something Bad without justification.
Convenience and flavour are not justification. It is unconsciousness and denial. “I can only be healthy by eating animal products” is ignorance. “Eggs and milk don’t harm animals” is ignorance.
Yes, vegans are morally superior.
Since the animals are around, wouldn’t it then be more moral to let them live out their lifespan instead of killing them prematurely?
“since we’re keeping them around anyway, we might as well enjoy the meat as a byproduct. ” – is a weak argument;
Domesticated animals are in the situation they are in because of us, that doesn’t mean that they have no right to not suffer.
Saying that we should use them since they are around anyway, hmm…marginal case humans are in that case ok to perform all kinds of dangerous medical experiments on, since they were around anyway…and they wouldn’t be able to survive without human intervention either.
Hmm. Interesting debate. I enjoyed it over a burger!
hahaha nicely put.
It is quite interesting to hear people argue over something when they have the same views on the matter. Vegans are not morally superior only because in this modernized society people have been transitioned into a highly processed diet, but if a person eats a vegan diet they are more likely to have better morals toward animals.This does not detirmine a persons morals in a whole for even a vegan may commit murder of another person or theft or any other crime that is unacceptable by socity’s rules. Vegans simply have been able to adjust to their diet back to its natural routes and so vegans are more intelligent because they are eating the diet that the human body was intended to ingest.To question whether or not vegans are morally superior we as humankind must first ask weather we should be privleged enough to toy with nature.
The word “superior” has negative connotations. Just the way this question is worded is begging for an argument. I would not say vegans are superior, but I would argue that a vegan lifestyle is more compassionate.
I have been vegan for 10 years and found you do not have to consume animal products to get the required nutrients. This makes the consumption of animal products unnecessary.
At this point of civilization, if you have the internet, you have the resources available (although mildly annoying to research in the beginning) to live a life without consuming animal products at all. So if you do consume animal products, please don’t argue it’s necessary at this point. It is due to the fact you have justified it in your head by arguments that are outdated or irrelevant at this point in society.
Even if an argument is that your religious beliefs state it’s okay to eat animals, the conditions in which the animals are “manufactured” are not pleasant, religious, or natural by any means. They are driven by money and more money comes by more products regardless of the manner the animals must be treated in. They are a commodity used for profit. Watch this and tell me Jesus would work in a factory farm: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6361872964130308142
… And to all of our friends living in a third world country who have to hunt for their food and live in an uncivilized undeveloped nation I say “Hunt and enjoy your meat!” It’s necessary.
The animals are here to live. A god did not put them on our planet for consumption. All different forms of animals have formed throughout millions of years to live and prosper. None were born for consumption. Horrible, truly horrible.
WOW, this is one hot mess…… has it ever occured to you all that both you vegans and meat eaters are both so arrogant to the point of not realizing that you put humans in a whole different category than animals???? guess what we are!? we are animals too!!!!!!!! so if you see a wolf running up on a baby caribou and tearing his throat out, would you say he is not being moral???? I know this is the only way wolves can survive and all. i mean, yes we have a choice not to kill animals, but did it ever occur to you that if we weren’t suposed to eat meat then why would we have ever started eating it? if we were say….. really evolved version of a deer or something, then we would not even go near that shit!!!! because we would not even need it! so….. you see where i am going with this? we need protein, while i do not agree we should eat as much of it as we do, and while i think some of the ways we raise cattle is shitty, i have no problem with meat. Bertrand, what kind of fucking moron are you? did yuou not even botehr reading what nome3000 said, he is also atheist, he was just simply making point, and it made perfect sense. But since you seem to not understand when people talk to you that way….
and to all you vegans that complain about how meat is produced, you need to think about how things would be if we were all vegans, you know how much more production of crops would be needed? do you know all the other stuff that goes on to produce your precious veggies? Some of this stuff is not very natural at all either, so do some ressearch. so all of a sudden because plants do not have “feelings” it is justifiable. the thing is, wether ytou like it or not, in order to survive, you gotta eat something…….. and just because a plant will not scream and bleed to death does it make you some kind of super compassionate person. the worl d is not flat….. people need to look at the big picture before they go on spewing their mouth diarrhea and realize that both sides have both good and bad to them.
danthepizzaman,
it takes more energy and plant sources to “create” meat than it does to directly consume the plant sources. so if we were all vegan, no, we would not need more production of crops.
couple good points otherwise
Good point notdan……..touche my man……. touche, i did not consider how most of our crops go to feeding livestock, and we only use something like 6% of it for actual food, or some ridiculously low number like that. meh…… as humans we are smart, but also stupid, because w use up so much energy to produce things but let about half of that energy go to waste in the process, and in the end only being able to use like 16% of it, we are too busy being wasteful i guess. Yeah i think we have somewhat of a meat addiction, but i think not having a balanced diet because of “ethics” is stupid, animals kill each other all the time, hell some don’t even wait till their prey is dead before they start eating it, and i think we are animals too, so i don’t see a problem. That is why i think it’s shitty when a wild animal kills a person then they go put the animal down, i think if we are out there in their territory then we should be fair game too you know. just saying….
I completely agree with you. If some dumbass gets attacked by an animal because of their own stupidity they should put the human down, not the animal.
You can get every nutrient out of a Vegan diet if you do it right minus B-12 which you take a vitamin for. My guess is about 30% of Vegans actually do it right though.
I do agree we are animals who eat other animals though. However I don’t feel it’s necessary to consume animals to be healthy. Since it’s not necessary, I feel its more compassionate to refrain from eating animal products. Compassionate or not we cannot survive without eating plants though, so that is necessary. I have been vegan for 10 years now but if I lived in a less civilized area I would definitely hunt and eat meat if it was necessary.
Also…… if you don’t think the whole “god put animals on earth for us to eat” thing is valid how about this, what gives a tiger the right to take a herbivore’s life away from them? hmmm….. I dunno they FRIGGIN EVOLVED the ability to do so!!!!! and because they can!!!!! the same way we evolved big ass brains and were able to fashion tools and weapons and such, we just ended up overtime more dominant, and that is why we can eat animals, trust me…… if there as another creature smarter than us and that just loooved human meat and was smart enough to take over us and enslave us for the purpose of food then they would do it and not think twice about it! then again, i have no problems with vegans, none at all…. if you want to keep eating your soy and tofu and what not, COOL! I even enjoy me some vegetarian shit from time to time, but i HATE IT when they think it is wrong form me to eat meat…. and having the whole “I’m better than you” complex, so quit bitching and accept the fact that no matter what you say people are not going to stop eating meat any time soon.
that is because most vegans need something to belong to. the god argument on both sides is shit.
i can say it is not necessary for you to eat meat to be healthy and i’ll leave it to your own free will.
Yeah it would be better if more vegans would actually do the whole thing right to make sure they are getting all the nutrients they need you now. I know too many young peole that think it is some kind of cool fad to say they don’t eat anything with meat and just eat veggies and not even consider that they need supplements and to balance their diet right and all that……..
What i don’t get is, why do some vegans have the need to feel better about themselves, and make fun of vegetearians and meat eaters. I don’t think I am better than anyone, but it’s like they can’t be happy just knowing to themselves that they are doing what they think is right but they have to go around telling them how wrong they are for not thinking like they do, It’s a little irritating. The whole argument about how humans are reverting to how we are really supposed to eat….. I’m not buying that, because if that was how we were supposed to eat then we would not be needing the supplements, and we would be fine just eating vegetables and fruits. And how is it that just because you choose to eat a certain way it makes you all of a sudden “smarter” be more spescific, you mean a smarter diet right? not smarter, that alone makes you sound like a retard, because last time i cheked you can feed a dumb person the right diet but is not all of a sudden going to make them act smarter, or more intelligent all of a sudden (WarisPeace).
well these vegans are probably the same people who listen to cooler music than you (bands you haven’t even heard of), wear cooler clothes than you (pants so tight they rival female skinny jeans), have a cooler car than you, go to more concerts than you, and have a hotter significant other than you. so you’re just going to have to learn your place amongst the cool kids
haha
hahahaha! yeah right! i listen to some kick ass music bro! you don’t even want to get into the music thing, though i have not been able to go to as many concerts latelly because i moved to Italy, and now have a kid…… yeah, it’s kinda hard to go places now LOL. But when i was back in Seattle man…… I was hitting up crazy live shows man!!!!! you know all them bands from up there, deathcab, messhuggah was up at the Corazon this one weekend, man oldschool shit like Blowfly, the gloryholes n’s shit, i could go on and on and on, plus all the indie fuckers from up northwest. And by cooler car what do you mean cooler? my car is a beast!!!!!!!! 2007 Toyota yaris baby!!!!!!! talk about beast!!!!!!! lol ahhh…… good times good times, now that i have he kid me and the wife do shi like drive down to amalfi and what not you know…… stuff like that, walk around sorrento, layed back stuff you know, go to the beach, maybe take the ferry out to ischia, oh man by the way, YOU WOULD HATE HOW MUCH VEAL HIS DAMN ITALIANS EAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! even i don’t eat that stuff!!!!! yeah you can have the skinny yeans bro………… my mutzzzz need the room, ha! fuck cool kids! GEEKS FTW!!!!!!!
speaking of seattle. sunny day real estate got back together.
SHIIIIIIITTTT!!!!!!!!!!!! not buying a house up in seattle any time soon bro! still mad expensive LOL
I am all for peoples right to choose what they want to eat but it’s a fact of life you will always have veggies and meat eaters and arguing will not change that. Everything we do has some effect on our planet, animals die when they are killed for meat, animals die when fields are plowed for crops. No diet is truly animal friendly. If it tastes good then eat it and enjoy it.
good point lol, if it eats good eh……… (sarcasm) plenty of stuff tastes good but it sucks for your body. going to disagree!
tastes*
Meats are good for the body and have a place in a healthy and varied diet. I wasnt talking about cream cakes or pizzas.
MEAT IS GOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!! MMMMMMMM YUMMY BBQ BABY BUNNIES
Vegans have an ethical/moral higher ground.
But morals are what we aspire to, not necessarily the way we live. Lets hope that we can continue to work towards abusing animals less. In all kinds of ways. Vegans don’t just avoid meat, they don’t deal with ANY animal involved products. Cosmetics, non-meat products ie dairy/ gellatin/ etc.
For my part, I eat meat. And I’ll continue to do so until people stop screwing around with GM vegies (especially soy…) I’m far more creeped out by that.
I think humans would taste nice at a bbq.
This is a fare more interesting debate than I’ve seen in a while !
I’ve been a vegan for two years, and I keep finding more and more reasons to keep it up, I love it; however, I never bitch at people who eat meat because I know I won’t be able to change their minds.
Yes, I would say a right minded Vegan person Is morally superior, or at least kinder to the planet. All religion/ human nature/ politics aside, eating meat is a HUGE factor of the deterioration of the environment. Between the clear cutting of forests for grazing land, and the massive amount of fresh water needed to produce meat/ dairy products. For example, it takes at least 2000 gallons of water to produce a gallon of milk, and at least 3500 for a pound of beef.
I see it as a protest against these industries, and, in my opinion, a healthier way to live.
The vegan lifestyle is morally superior. Any lifestyle which promotes the alleviation of suffering ahead of personal sensory gratification is superior. Even if there were no real benefit to veganism, by the standards of most major moral systems, the simple intention of putting others needs ahead of personal indulgence is considered morally better.
But there are real benefits. Vegans avoid supporting the massive cruelty and violence towards animals that characterises commercial meat production. The vegan lifestyle significantly reduces environmental pollution. Eating vegan also reduces the amount of land needed to feed humans thereby reversing habitat loss. Vegan living reduces the incidence of disease. The vegan diet does not waste staple foods such as corn and soy which would feed 50-90% more people if they were not passed through animals first. The plethora of actual harm avoided or reduced by veganism renders it genuinely superior to consuming animals.
Lisa, Sept 3 said, “For my part, I eat meat. And I’ll continue to do so until people stop screwing around with GM vegies (especially soy…) I’m far more creeped out by that.”
What do you think they’ve been feeding those animals you are eating? Most of that GM soy and corn is going right into your meat. You’re consuming far more GM foods through a meat diet that you ever would through a plant diet. And what about the genetic manipulation of the animals themselves. That does not creep you out?
If all non-diet factors are the same, then yes, vegans are morally superior. They put compassion ahead of hedonistic pleasure and convenience.
People aren’t the same as non-human animals because they are endowed with far greater moral judgment, self-restraint, and intelligence. That is why we have a responsibility to be good stewards of the planet and its creatures. When you choose to eat meat, you definitely aren’t being a good steward.